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Goku vs frost manga power levels?
Topic Started: Nov 29 2016, 06:52 PM (4,534 Views)
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魔王子

Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:42 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 05:36 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:19 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 03:09 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 06:20 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 03:04 AM
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 01:45 AM
@prince But isn't 300,000,000 too low if goku is stronger than android 17/18? And isn't there about an 80x gap between third and fourth form? Well there was for Frieza at least
Was it ever implied that base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than No. 17 in the Super manga? Regarding Frost, Frost never bulked up, so I figure his fourth form would be the equivalent of Freeza's 50% power.
I thought we had evidence for base goku>androids in the Z manga already? Idc actually as long as we agree he's above Frieza it doesn't matter

I get around that with the Essence of Super Saiyan theory. Most people like to bloat the scaling and or reduce the Super Saiyan multipliers, but I just assume the base Saiyans are below Freeza, up to Battle of Gods, but can increase their base strength with a fraction of their Super Saiyan energy. After all, Goku utilized Super Saiyan energy without transforming in episode 195.
If they need the SSJ form to access that power though, how does it make sense that they can access it in their base form? The max power of their base form should be whatever they can handle without using a technique like Kaioken to forcibly strain it.
I don't even see why this is a question when we've seen Goku do it. We have a practical example in episode 195. A fraction of their Super Saiyan energy merely acts as an amplifier. It goes a long way in explaining things that otherwise don't make sense, I.E. base Goku keeping up with a weighted Paikuhan in the Ano Yo-Ichi Budokai.
That's all good for filler, but why would DBZ filler be canon to the Super manga?
This is more a case of, it doesn't really contradict the "canon" material, so I just apply it across the board.
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ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 05:44 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:42 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 05:36 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:19 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 03:09 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 06:20 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 03:04 AM
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 01:45 AM
@prince But isn't 300,000,000 too low if goku is stronger than android 17/18? And isn't there about an 80x gap between third and fourth form? Well there was for Frieza at least
Was it ever implied that base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than No. 17 in the Super manga? Regarding Frost, Frost never bulked up, so I figure his fourth form would be the equivalent of Freeza's 50% power.
I thought we had evidence for base goku>androids in the Z manga already? Idc actually as long as we agree he's above Frieza it doesn't matter

I get around that with the Essence of Super Saiyan theory. Most people like to bloat the scaling and or reduce the Super Saiyan multipliers, but I just assume the base Saiyans are below Freeza, up to Battle of Gods, but can increase their base strength with a fraction of their Super Saiyan energy. After all, Goku utilized Super Saiyan energy without transforming in episode 195.
If they need the SSJ form to access that power though, how does it make sense that they can access it in their base form? The max power of their base form should be whatever they can handle without using a technique like Kaioken to forcibly strain it.
I don't even see why this is a question when we've seen Goku do it. We have a practical example in episode 195. A fraction of their Super Saiyan energy merely acts as an amplifier. It goes a long way in explaining things that otherwise don't make sense, I.E. base Goku keeping up with a weighted Paikuhan in the Ano Yo-Ichi Budokai.
That's all good for filler, but why would DBZ filler be canon to the Super manga?
This is more a case of, it doesn't really contradict the "canon" material, so I just apply it across the board.
Why, though? I doubt Toyotaro is factoring DBZ filler into his manga and using concepts from it as his own, especially one that doesn't make sense in itself. How much of this 'essence' can he actually tap into, and why is that power reserved for his SSJ form when his base form can obviously handle it with little to no strain by itself?
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魔王子

Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:47 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 05:44 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:42 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 05:36 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 30 2016, 05:19 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 03:09 PM
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 06:20 AM
ThePrinceOfSaiyans
Nov 30 2016, 03:04 AM
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 01:45 AM
@prince But isn't 300,000,000 too low if goku is stronger than android 17/18? And isn't there about an 80x gap between third and fourth form? Well there was for Frieza at least
Was it ever implied that base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than No. 17 in the Super manga? Regarding Frost, Frost never bulked up, so I figure his fourth form would be the equivalent of Freeza's 50% power.
I thought we had evidence for base goku>androids in the Z manga already? Idc actually as long as we agree he's above Frieza it doesn't matter

I get around that with the Essence of Super Saiyan theory. Most people like to bloat the scaling and or reduce the Super Saiyan multipliers, but I just assume the base Saiyans are below Freeza, up to Battle of Gods, but can increase their base strength with a fraction of their Super Saiyan energy. After all, Goku utilized Super Saiyan energy without transforming in episode 195.
If they need the SSJ form to access that power though, how does it make sense that they can access it in their base form? The max power of their base form should be whatever they can handle without using a technique like Kaioken to forcibly strain it.
I don't even see why this is a question when we've seen Goku do it. We have a practical example in episode 195. A fraction of their Super Saiyan energy merely acts as an amplifier. It goes a long way in explaining things that otherwise don't make sense, I.E. base Goku keeping up with a weighted Paikuhan in the Ano Yo-Ichi Budokai.
That's all good for filler, but why would DBZ filler be canon to the Super manga?
This is more a case of, it doesn't really contradict the "canon" material, so I just apply it across the board.
Why, though? I doubt Toyotaro is factoring DBZ filler into his manga and using concepts from it as his own, especially one that doesn't make sense in itself. How much of this 'essence' can he actually tap into, and why is that power reserved for his SSJ form when his base form can obviously handle it with little to no strain by itself?
It doesn't have to apply to Toyotaro's manga, it's ultimately unnecessary in it's case. The purpose of the Essence of Super Saiyan theory is to allow all the Dragon Ball material to coexist from a power scaling perspective. Keep the base Saiyans below Freeza, but allow them to increase their base strength with a fraction of their Super Saiyan energy to make sense of filler and movies that have the base Saiyans keeping up with people presumably much stronger than their base forms, I.E. Gokua vs Trunks, base Goku vs RSSJ Broli, and base Goku vs Weighted Paikuhan. As for how much energy that is, that's up to the person using the theory I guess. I tend to go with something like a 5th or a 4th. Half gets you what we saw in Episode 195.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Nov 30 2016, 05:58 PM.
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In movies, anime filler, and maybe GT I can see it. It's never happened in manga canon though. It's not really that hard to believe they would be able to transform only half way or something like that. Especially since they have such good control over ssj at this point
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Ssj3vegito96
Nov 30 2016, 06:18 PM
In movies, anime filler, and maybe GT I can see it. It's never happened in manga canon though. It's not really that hard to believe they would be able to transform only half way or something like that. Especially since they have such good control over ssj at this point
It never had to apply to the manga. This theory merely acts as a "how the base Saiyans could still be weaker than Freeza, but stronger than No. 18 or Piccolo if they were to fight in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai".
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Quote:
 
After all, Goku utilized Super Saiyan energy without transforming in episode 195.

What!? Are you talking about that scene were he is fighting against Ginyu Force and was about to fight Cell? Because, that was an animation inconsistency by Toei. Goku was originally a Super Saiyan in that scene. Because, if you actually watched the original Dragon Ball Z Japanese run you can see that in the Next Episode Preview of Episode 194 Goku is actually in Super Saiyan. But, for some reason Toei decided (I think it was just a few hours before the episode aired) that Goku should not be Super Saiyan in that scene (Probably because Pikkon wasn't supposed to know about Super Saiyans yet or probably they thought it would have been an overkill for Goku to use Super Saiyan against Ginyu force). So, they just digitally altered Goku's hair and eyes back to black.

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Hip3r
Nov 30 2016, 11:06 PM
Quote:
 
After all, Goku utilized Super Saiyan energy without transforming in episode 195.

What!? Are you talking about that scene were he is fighting against Ginyu Force and was about to fight Cell? Because, that was an animation inconsistency by Toei. Goku was originally a Super Saiyan in that scene. Because, if you actually watched the original Dragon Ball Z Japanese run you can see that in the Next Episode Preview of Episode 194 Goku is actually in Super Saiyan. But, for some reason Toei decided (I think it was just a few hours before the episode aired) that Goku should not be Super Saiyan in that scene (Probably because Pikkon wasn't supposed to know about Super Saiyans yet or probably they thought it would have been an overkill for Goku to use Super Saiyan against Ginyu force). So, they just digitally altered Goku's hair and eyes back to black.
I'm well aware that Goku was originally going to be a Super Saiyan, but that doesn't negate what happens. Goku is using Super Saiyan energy in his base form. This extends beyond episode just 195 too. Broli is an example one can use. Yes, he sets himself apart from other Saiyans, but he was in a state between base and Super Saiyan when fighting Goku for the first time in movie 8.
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Was he? It looked like he was simply a restrained Super Saiyan, but still a Super Saiyan nonetheless.
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Pyrus
Nov 30 2016, 11:50 PM
Was he? It looked like he was simply a restrained Super Saiyan, but still a Super Saiyan nonetheless.
I'd argue being quasi-Super Saiyan is amping your base with Super Saiyan energy.
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Maybe, but it isn't Base either. It more resembles Super Saiyan in Broly's case.
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Pyrus
Dec 1 2016, 01:10 AM
Maybe, but it isn't Base either. It more resembles Super Saiyan in Broly's case.
Well, much like Goku in episode 195, his hair is standing on end, and he has a golden aura. I don't see much of a distinction between the 2. That being said, my goal isn't to prove whether or not the base Saiyans do in fact amp their base states with Super Saiyan energy. My goal is present an in-universe explanation for instances where there isn't much of a difference between a base Saiyan and a Super Saiyan in filler using head canon. We can all agree that the power scaling in filler and some of the films wasn't thought out to a huge degree.
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Even though there's no evidence in the manga of this...is it really hard to believe they could do this? They have such good control over Ssj that I wouldn't be surprised if they can half way transform. It doesn't really change much tbh so I don't see a problem with people seeing it this way
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Dec 1 2016, 01:21 AM.
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I'm a minimalist when it comes to power levels. Maybe the saiyans are able to amp their base forms after mastering ssj without transforming. Having base saiyans beyond #18 and Piccolo really makes other characters seem very weak, especially if Goten and Trunks are.
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